10 lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag
There’s a fantastic designer rant on Craigslist making the rounds, so here it is posted for posterity.
re:Graphics person able to bring my logo to life ($100)
Reply to: [deleted]
Date: 2007-08-23, 12:37PM EDTIt is not my purpose to bash the OP, or call them cheap or whatever.
I realize that you might not have a large budget to get the type of work you need. Probably have no idea what the current rates are, and what goes into a logo package.
I’m sure there’s someone out there who will “bring your logo to life” for $100.
That person is not me.
That person isn’t most designers with any real talent and skill.
And this isn’t just for you, Mr. do-my-logo-for-a-hundred-dollars, this is for everyone who devalues the work of good graphic designers.
If only “designing” was my job, life would be so much easier.Here’s why:
When a potential client comes to me, basically asking the same thing you are, I tell them my price. Never less than $400. Of course, I get scoffed at, and am told any number of things including:
My nephew/cousin/brother-in-law/friend, whoever, has Photoshop, and said they’d do it for $xx or free.
Why should I pay so much for you to design something that I can’t even touch?
Well so-and-so over at logomilldotcom told me he can do it for much cheaper…the list goes on and on, and I won’t bore you with it.
Working designers know what I’m talking about.
We deal with it every day.Now, I’m going to tell you why I would charge you $500 –at the least.
When you hire me to make your logo, I not only have to come up with numerous ideas based on what you think you want, I also have to take into account where you’ll be using it, and what for.
I have to explain you out of many poor decisions based on your lack of understanding why your idea won’t work. We LOVE it when you have a great idea, but it happens rarely.What kind of business are you in?
Who are you marketing towards?
What do you hope to do with the logo in the future?
Is it a trendy look that will blend in and disappear?
Is it too ambitious and full of unnecessary elements that take away from the message?
Does it make any sense in any way?
Am I taking someone else’s work and digitizing it so you have a proper .eps file?
Why didn’t you have them do it in the first place?
Was it because you got it for $50?
I could spend hours rehashing the millions of questions I’ve come across, talking with potential clients.The last logo I did, I charged 1k.
That 1k got my client almost 25 different ideas to choose from.(could’ve been more, ended up with the original idea -doesn’t negate the hours I spent on other mock ups)
It got him the proper colors that best suit his business and work well in print and on the web.
It got him letterhead and business cards.
It got him branding and marketing strategy.
It got him the proper files so that he could send the logo out to be printed on everything he needed for his business.
Ultimately, it got him more business.Now I design brochures for him and frequently update his website(that I also made)… because his business is growing, and the strategy worked.
I get emails from him all the time, thanking me for everything.
Why? because it was professional, and it was well thought out and it meant something. I didn’t hand him a cd with a logo on it and say “good luck”.
That’s what 100 bucks gets you.100 dollars also ensures that no matter how bad your idea is, or how ridiculous you logo looks, the “designer” will keep their mouth shut and give you the exact crap you’re asking for.
Then you’ll wonder why it isn’t working, or why you have to keep getting it in different formats for different people.
You feel robbed, and now think that, what designers do is bullshit.I can’t tell you how much more than just designing, I do with my clients.
I’m regularly walking them through everything. I’m dealing with teaching them how and where to use the files to accomplish their business plans.
I’m always consulting them. I can be counted on for ideas and strategies to get their business seen, in a market that is flooded.If you can get all of that for $100… then you’re a lucky man, and should never tell anyone about your guy -Of course, you will also in a way be putting him out of work, but that’s ok, because you got your cheap logo.
I will however apologize in advance if I misrepresented you in this post.
More so than anything, it’s what I want to tell every person who looks for low priced work.
I know from years of experience and hand holding, everything that goes into designing your logo, and everything else I do in that process, is what the future of your business is hinging on.
Stop thinking of designers as people who make pictures, or who do work that has no real value, because you’re wrong. A good designer with any marketing savvy can take your shitty idea for a logo, and turn it into the centerpiece of your prosperous business.
Great design is not stuffing 10 lbs of shit in a 5lb bag.
And it’s definitely not happening with $100.If you don’t have the money, work out a deal, make payment, but please, stop undervaluing what we do. I swear, once you shop around and talk to some people, you’ll see that if you care about the future of your business, it’s money well spent.
I have to say, though, the author’s described $1k logo project is still pretty under-valued for most designers, especially considering the fact that he made 25 mock-ups, business cards, and letterhead. It varies by location and by client, but it safe to say that much full and intensive branding and identity work should cost at least double his rate - triple in Los Angeles.
Sometimes I wish I did more freelance work, rather than the same ol’ same ol’ everyday, but not having to deal with low-ballers and the rest of the issues involved with the business side of creativity is pretty refreshing.
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A friend posted this last April.
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?
More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.
4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely.
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them. Say NO to free art.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free…please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
If you agree with the above important information, please pass it along. The more people know, the faster we can correct this.
Lane, that’s an excellent piece. The comparison between the supply of trained professionals in each field is quite surprising, and makes for a good case. Thanks!
Also, I still need to send you pictures of my bike with the Cetma rack mounted. Funny you should post a comment today. I was just in my favorite L.A. bike shop earlier in the evening, Hollywood Pro Bicycles, which has a definite bias towards very utilitarian, everyday, urban cycling. They immediately started asking me about the rack on my bike. “What is that? How much does it cost? Really? I want one!”
They currently carry a few of the Ahearne front racks but their high cost has caused them to sit around for months. I had only good things to say about Cetma racks. Anyways, if you get a call from HPB, that’s why.
Hey,
Just wanted to thank you for reposting my CL rant about the guy looking for the $100 logo design.
I’ve received a great many positive responses from it, and have to say that the attention it’s getting was totally unexpected, but appreciated none-the-less.
Feels good to know that it wasn’t all for nothing.
Also, I’ve been poking around you blog. Great work!
Again, thanks,
Will